Welcome to an insightful episode where I sit down with Shannon Mattern, a seasoned business coach specializing in helping web design entrepreneurs create freedom, flexibility, and financial independence. In our conversation, Shannon shares invaluable business and marketing insights for design professionals. Uncover the key elements of a successful marketing strategy, gain clarity on identifying your unique selling proposition, and explore practical tips for leveraging social media platforms effectively. From content marketing to networking, Shannon sheds light on common misconceptions and provides actionable guidance for design business owners.

 

Listen to the episode here:

Spotify  –  Apple Podcasts  –  Amazon Music

 

You will learn:

• The importance of marketing in attracting the right clients and fostering business growth.
• Strategies for identifying and leveraging your unique selling proposition to stand out in a crowded market.
• Practical tips for effectively showcasing your work and attracting potential clients on platforms like Instagram, Pinterest, and LinkedIn.
• Insights into content marketing strategies tailored to resonate with your target audience and establish authority in your niche.
• Common marketing mistakes to avoid and actionable guidance for refining your marketing efforts.

Grab a cup of coffee and be ready to take notes!

About Shannon:

Shannon Mattern is a business coach for web designers and host of the Profitable Web Designer Podcast where she shares strategies and advice to help web designers create freedom, flexibility and financial independence.

Website: https://webdesigneracademy.com

Instagram: https://instagram.com/profitablewebdesigner

Web Designer Archetypes Quiz: https://webdesigneracademy.com/quiz

 

Resources:

$12k Client Attraction Masterclass: https://aventiveacademy.com/attract-clients-workshop/

The Wealthy Client Blueprint: ⁠https://aventiveacademy.com/wealthy-client/

12-Week Business Program for Designers: https://aventiveacademy.com/profit

The Creative CEO Accelerator: https://aventiveacademy.com/accelerator

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TRANSCRIPT:

0:00
It’s OK to make money, by the way. Side note. But, you know, just going in and asking, “How can I give value? How can I educate? How can I lead from that place as I’m connecting and building this relationship and letting people know about the opportunities available to them that they might not know about?”

0:22
How can I add value and also let people know, like, “Hey, I would love to help you if this sounds like something you would be interested in.”

0:50
Welcome to the Profitable Graphic Designer podcast, brought to you by Aventive Academy. I’m your host, Katie Sundell. I’m a brand strategist, designer, creative director, and the CEO of a successful six-figure design agency based in Austin, TX, serving clients worldwide.

1:08
After mastering the art of building a profitable and sustainable design business, I decided to help you achieve the same success. I teach brand, graphic, and web design business owners how to attract more clients, increase their pricing, and develop design businesses that provide the financial freedom and time flexibility you’ve always dreamt of.

1:28
We offer online programs, courses, and templates that you can use, along with our Coaching Accelerator and Mastermind high-touch experiences for creatives. You can learn more about starting and growing your design business at EventiveAcademy.com. But for now, grab a cup of coffee and join me in today’s podcast episode.

1:51
Hello and welcome. I am so excited to talk with our guest today, Shannon. She’s a business coach for web design business owners, and even though she specifically helps web designers, what we are going to talk about today will also benefit brand and graphic designers.

2:09
So don’t just leave the episode if you’re a brand or graphic design business owner. Shannon shares strategies and advice to help designers create freedom, flexibility, and financial independence. I will actually ask her now to introduce herself and tell us who she is and what she does. Welcome, Shannon.

2:29
Katie, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here. Yeah, like you said, my name is Shannon Modern and I am the founder of the Web Designer Academy. And yeah, we, we help web designers specifically, but everything we teach applies to any kind of creative service provider—how to package, price, position, sell, and market their services and also just build a business that works with their life instead of building a business that like runs their life.

3:04
And I think that’s one of the biggest things that we help our students do is fix some of the problems they’ve created in their web design business. When they end up kind of like creating a job for themselves, it ends up making them feel really trapped.

3:22
So that’s kind of our specialty is helping people deconstruct the businesses they’ve built the way they thought they should be run, and then find that it doesn’t serve them in their life. This is horrible. I’d rather just go work for someone else. And that’s where we come in. We’re like, no, no, no, we can help you with that.

3:37
Yeah, I love that because I can totally relate to that. I still remember when I quit my job and then I started to work for myself and I was working way more than nine to five, making way less money, and didn’t even like the work that I was doing. So it was really bad.

3:57
Yes, I created a job for myself that I didn’t like. I did the same thing. Yeah. So, OK. So to start, can you tell us a bit about your background and experience in web design? Like when did you start and all the good stuff?

4:16
Yeah. So my earliest experience with web design was way back in 2002 when I graduated from college. I had taken a class my senior year, and back then we were designing in Dreamweaver. It was super old school.

4:35
I was a communications major, and it was one of the classes that I took. I ended up graduating. The timing of me graduating was not great for the economy and the job market. I was working at a coffee shop making lattes. My sister worked at a law firm and she was like, “Hey, we have an internship opportunity available in the marketing department. Do you want to do this?”

5:05
I was like, “Yes, please. I need something to get my foot in the door because I’m just a college graduate making lattes.” I got an internship in the marketing department at this law firm. With my communication skills and my technical background, which was very limited, but back then it was more than anybody else, I ended up being hired to do a lot of the technical marketing things in that department.

5:29
I ended up being hired to do a lot of the technical marketing things in that department. And so I was truly just solving problems by solving communication problems and creating communication opportunities through like building websites.

5:46
And I was in charge of like our firm’s website and I ran it with a big company who did all of the work. So I got kind of like the behind the scenes look at like what is a big development project look like even though I wasn’t the one designing.

And then after that you know I discovered WordPress and I started using it to do some client communications.

6:08
So my background isn’t necessarily like a design background as much as it is like solving business problems with technology. And then I left that job, got another job working for a nonprofit and they were like oh you can build a website. We need a website done. We need this, we need that, we need a vet registration. We need to sell these courses.

6:27
And so I really truly just figured out along the way how to solve all of these problems with websites and how to really like grow the organization and all of those things. And that was like I was a corporate girl. I was going to work corporate forever. Like, that was that’s why I went to college, you know? And then there came a time 10 years into that second role where I was just like, I this is Groundhog Day.

7:02
I cannot do this anymore. And it’s the same thing every day, the same year repeats itself every single year. And I remember having a panic attack at my desk, like, is this what I’m going to do until I retire? Like, I do not do this anymore.

7:18
This does not feel like any kind of life to have. And that’s when I was like, well, I’ve done I I’ve, I see how much money and opportunity and everything that the things that I built with my brain created for my company, maybe I could get paid to do that for other people.

7:41
And so as I was starting to, like, think outside of the box, like, maybe I could get paid to do this. Maybe I could be my own boss. One of the vendors that I worked with at that job reached out to me and was like, hey, who built your website for XYZ? I have a client that needs that done. Can you give me the contact information?

8:14
And I’m like $25 an hour, like whatever. I was making up my day job at the time and he was like sold. And I like, didn’t realize at the time that I was not calculating in any of like, I had no idea what I was doing, but I took the job. I told other people that that happened. They were like, oh, you, you use WordPress. Like, I need help, I need help. I know someone, I know someone.

8:31
And I got all of these clients and I was so overwhelmed, so burnt out. I treated every single client like they were my boss. I’m still working full time. And I was like, this is not working. Like, there’s got to be a better way. But like, I don’t know what it is. And then I just was like, I’m going to shut all this down. Like, I can’t do it. So I started, I did. I ended all of those client projects.

9:04
And then I was like listening to a podcast one day. It was called Smart Passive Income with Pat Flynn. And it was actually, it was actually a different podcast that he was on. But he was talking about how he teaches people how to build websites and he gets affiliate commissions when he recommends, like when he promoted and recommended the tools and stuff in the trainings.

9:26
And I was like, wait a minute, are you telling me that every tutorial that I’ve ever looked at online to learn how to do the things that I do and when I buy those tools, people are making money off that. People aren’t just making that out of the goodness of their heart like they’re making, they’re doing that for I’m like, I could do that. I could totally do that. I could totally teach people how to do this. So I did. I created a free training that hat was like full of affiliate links and I just got to work promoting that.

And that was super fun. I didn’t have to deal with clients.

10:01
It was amazing. I just got to like figure out how to market that. But then I got to this point where I’m, like, still working full time. I’m trying to figure out how to be like the next Amy Porterfield of DIY web design. And I was just, I really wanted to quit my job.

And so I came across this business coach who had taken my free training and she was like, can’t I just pay you to, like, do this for me? Like your free training is great, but I don’t want to do, I don’t want to spend the time on it. And I was just like, what do you mean? I’m giving this to you for free. Like, you don’t have to pay for it. Why? I don’t know. Like, I don’t understand. And she was like, can I please pay you for this? And I’m like, I don’t do client work anymore because I was like, it’s too hard, right? And then she’s like, let’s hop on a call. And she was like, listen, like, you need to let people pay you for this.

10:52
I can help you fix your broken processes. Let’s let’s do this. And I was like OK And I had the realization that like if I fixed my broken processes and my boundaries and fixed all of the things that caused me to quit in the first place, I could actually make a lot more money than those $65 pop commissions and I wouldn’t have to hustle so hard.

And so I started doing that and then started taking one-on-one clients again and long story longer people started asking me like, OK, but how are you doing this? Like how are you getting clients? How are you running these projects? How is this working? And that’s kind of when I started like coaching and mentoring other designers.

11:33
So it was a long, windy path to figuring out how to actually run a sustainable, profitable web design business. From being like a corporate person who said yes to everything, to being like I have to operate completely differently to run a business.

11:53
OK. So tell me, what was the timeline? What year did you quit your job? When was like, when did you exactly start your business and how long did it take you to make it really sustainable and successful? Yeah, I started freelancing in the summer of 2014.

12:12
I had quit freelancing by like 2015 and started doing that training. Pick it back up again 2016. And by 2018 I quit my day job and by that point I was making six figures at my day job and my thing was like, I am not leaving a six-figure day job with full benefits unless I’m making that on the side of my business.

12:39
And so by 2018 I had hit that like threshold like that monthly revenue twice. And that’s when I was like OK, it’s time. Like, I know I can do this. I’ve covered my paycheck for two months in a row. I have some business savings. Like, for me, that’s what I felt like I needed to do. Everybody’s risk tolerance and whatever is different. And then I put my notice in and I went on my own at the beginning of 2018. And I’ve only looked back once. I guess I would say every other time I’m let you know for the six years, it’s been amazing. There’s only been one time where I was like, oh, this is hard, but that was just a blip on the radar. And I was like, no, no, I’ll never go back. Never. Yeah.

Yeah. I can totally relate to that. So it seems like you became really good at marketing and like getting clients being in front of them. So let’s talk about that a little bit because marketing is so important for attracting the right clients. And I know I purposely said the right clients because I feel, and many of our listeners will now be like, yeah, yeah, whatever. But I feel like it’s very easy to get clients but not the right clients.

13:55
And what I mean by that is when I was, I think it was 2000, I honestly don’t even know, let’s say 2017 or something like that. That wasn’t Craigslist. I was getting clients through Craigslist and I was able to land a lot of clients for $300 for a logo and I was never able to pay more than like for my rent and food to have enough money, right?

14:18
So I think that marketing is so, so important and it’s so important for all our listeners to really think about how to track the right clients. And so I’ll start with a very broad and basic question, like how should a designer market themselves these days in order to get clients?

14:36
What would you say? That is such a good question and I think I love the nuance that you make between clients and the right clients because yeah, it’s super easy to get clients. Just tell people what you do like they’re going to be. There’s going to be opportunities in that way. But the way that you know when you’re talking about the right clients, meaning clients who value what you do, clients who are willing to, who are in a position to invest in their business, clients who want you to help them solve valuable problems in their business.

15:12
But I think that that requires a different, a little bit of a different approach and one of the like most common ways that I tell people is you know, create you, you still have to meet people, people, people are involved. I mean absolutely like creating content and SEO, optimizing that and all of that is, is important And that’s like a longer term strategy. But in the short term, like just getting getting really clear on like who else serves the clients that you already want to serve, right?

15:52
So is there you know, easiest example that I can think of, Is there like a professional association that these ideal clients of yours are a member of? Is there another industry that serves them or another type of service provider that serves them?

16:09
And how can you develop relationships with people adjacent to your ideal clients to like find your way to them, right. And so I think that’s like networking in that way where you’re not necessarily like trying to, you know, one by one find your clients, but you’re connecting with people who have access to your ideal clients is a fantastic way to to start that relationship. And then how can you add value?

I always like, you know, people are always concerned about going in and you know, I don’t want to be too salesy or I don’t want, you know, people to think I’m just here to make money. It’s like it’s OK to make money.

16:57
By the way side note, but you know just going in and how can I give value, how can I educate, how can I lead from that place as I’m connecting and building this relationship and letting people know about the opportunities that are available to them that they might not know about.

17:18
How can I add value and also let people know like hey, I would love to help you if this sounds sounds like something that you would be interested in. So we tell our students we’re like, hey, make a list of 5-10 whatever people, organizations, podcasts, blogs, whatever that serve your your ideal clients and reach out to them, connect with them, add values, you know, start building that relationship because you will eventually, sooner than you usually think, like get an opportunity that comes from that.

17:57
So that’s one of the easiest ways to get started where you don’t have to build an audience and you know, do all of do all of the work that you eventually will do to round out your marketing efforts.

Yeah. So basically focus on the referral marketing strategies and do you think people should do that by, you know, connecting with people on like LinkedIn, Instagram, like social media or going to networking events like how would you, how would they approach that? Like how do how do they find people who serve the same or similar audience?

18:26
My best piece of advice is like do what you like to do. You know, if you don’t like to go to networking events and it’s going to be a whole thing for you and you’re going to stress out about it and wonder what to wear. And you know what to do when you get there and where do you put your hands? And like all of this, like, I would not start there. I would start with like, where are you already spending your time? If you are, you know if you are active on Instagram or LinkedIn or whatever, wherever you’re spending your time, then start the search there.

19:09
Connect there, see what other people are doing in a place that you feel comfortable that you can reach out and be yourself. And then from there, you know, as you start to develop your network, you can ask to tag along to someone with a networking event that can be like your wing woman and like, you know, introduce you to people like, so you don’t have to go it alone, but start where you’re comfortable and then consider like branching out to where you’re less comfortable to ask for help.

19:42
You know, hey, someone you mentioned that I should go to this local networking event. Would you take me with you next time and introduce me to some people? And so I think that there’s ways that you can you can do it and take the friction down, because if you dread it, you’re not going to do it.

20:02
Yeah, definitely. And so who do you think that, let’s say, web design business owners should connect the most? I mean, I’m going to just say who’s coming to my mind is maybe copywriters, web developers especially. I mean, I know that these days we have so many platforms that all that are all in one. So it’s not that we have that we need developers every single time, but there are many web designers who really want to focus on web design only. And so I believe that by connecting with web developers that would benefit them. Copywriters as I mentioned. Like who else do you think that they should connect with?

20:35
I think other service providers is great and I also like to kind of break outside of that in terms of like you know who are these people going to for mentorship in this specific like niche that you’re in and then like go one step adjacent or one step outside of that. So are there business coaches specifically serving, serving the level of business owner that you want to work with or someone at this certain stage that you’re in? Again, like professional associations I think are really an untapped resource.

21:13
Conference organizers that serve that niche there are still, you know, we talk a lot about niching down just in marketing in general, almost every industry out there is niching down. So just getting creative of like who else is serving this niche in a variety of ways that like you might not even really realize exists.

21:38
And I think that that starting to do some research that way and like in addition to just like oh service providers that also serve them in the same capacity but you know breaking out of that into into areas where they’re not being served like there’s no web designer over here talking about this in this in this area you will you could quickly become like the go to person for them.

22:07
Yeah, I love that. That is so creative. And something that I also want to mention is that many web design business owners and brand graphic like actually a lot of design business owners struggle with like figuring out what is that that sets them apart and then it’s very hard for them to market because they feel like.

22:26
But I’m just another designer, and you know, many really design professionals struggle with finding their unique selling proposition. Like USB I know, it sounds fancy, but you know, and it’s it’s really hard for them to figure out what makes them stand out. So how can they maybe identify what sets them apart and use it in their marketing efforts?

22:47
I love this question so much and my answer to this is that you don’t necessarily need to know how you are different. You need to know what your clients really want and talk about them. Like marketing is not about us, it’s about the results that our clients want to create from working with us.

23:10
And so I think a lot of times when you say like designers struggle to stand out, it’s because you know and web designers too, it’s like we all have very similar skill sets. There are trends that are happening that we all love and we’re all designing really awesome things that are all similar, like page builders and everything has really like a playing field has been leveled for a lot of us.

23:35
So if we’re trying to say, here’s how I stand out from everybody else, it’s like not to say that you don’t and that you’re not amazing and super smart and special and have a unique talent, but so do a lot of other people.

23:51
And so if I’m going to catch the attention of my ideal clients, I get to stop talking about me and how special and unique I am. And I get to start talking about them and what they want and how I can help them and my process for getting them there. And why I care so much about them and why I am like why I’m so passionate about their industry and how I have special insight into what they do that, that they, you know, I know what they don’t know.

And those are the things that are going to make you stand out to a potential client instead of like, here’s why you should pick me over everything else.

24:30
If you start talking about them, they’re not even going to be thinking about anyone else. They’re going to be thinking about themselves and get excited about working with you.

Before we continue with this podcast episode, I just want to quickly remind you that if you’re a design business owner whose dream is to have a successful and profitable career so you can enjoy the freedom and flexibility that comes with it, then I have something for you.

24:58
The Profitable Designer program is my signature 12-week system that will help you improve your business, sign amazing high paying clients and truly achieve your financial and lifestyle goals.

Visit aventiveacademy.com/profit to check if you can join us now or if we are currently not accepting more designers into the program.

25:20
In that case you will be able to join the wait list and be the first to know when we open the doors again.

Now we’ll go back to the episode in a second, but I just want to add that designers who completed the program were able to sign five-figure design clients 10 times their pricing reach, six figures and beyond make $20,000 per month while working only a few hours a week and more.

25:46
Here is what Julia said.

It really has everything you could ever ask for to build a six-figure business that will allow you to have financial freedom and that’s why I personally did it like I wanted that flexibility.

So if you want to be my next success story and achieve results like these, visit aventiveacademy.com/profit.

26:08
Now let’s go back to the episodes.

What are some like tips that you would say when it comes to niching and like how far do you think because I’ve heard you mentioning, I know that you say niche, some people say niche niche.

26:23
But basically like how narrow should design business owners like specialize and find their niche or target audience. Like do you think that they should go choosing an industry or type of the design that they do or maybe website platform?

26:40
Because I’ve seen so many designers like oh I specialize in web flow or I specialize in this and that and I’m thinking I I love that. But also I’m thinking from the client’s perspective, they don’t mostly care. I mean, at least that’s what I believe because I mean, sure, they maybe want to have a website, maybe they prefer Shopify or Squarespace or WordPress, but I don’t think that that should be the main thing designers should talk about.

27:08
So can you just tell us like what is that that there’s really highlights in their marketing and how narrow should they niche?

Yeah, I totally agree with you that like for the majority of people they’re not like, you know, they haven’t picked their platform before.

27:24
They before they come to you, unless they have a really specific you know thing that they do that you know really fits on Shopify or you know whatever started their preliminary research, you can niche in a tool and and there are people that are out there that are specifically searching for people with that tool.

27:46
I you know this question for me like we we have you know one of our students who exclusively builds websites for doulas like she was a doula for her brand is the website doula. That’s her thing. She is well connected in that industry and she pivoted to web design. She has a never ending stream of clients because she has. She’s just so connected in that space and she’s able to like speak to them in a way that really resonates with them.

28:24
And like her biggest problem is like too many clients, right? And so it’s a really great place to be and it’s a very specific niche. And she chose it because it’s like at the intersection of her experience and her passion and something that she’s really interested in so she can talk about it in a really unique way.

And so the question is in terms of like how narrow do you go? I think the way I like to think about it is like where can you marry your design skills with something that you’re already passionate and knowledgeable about and speak to the clients in that space in a way that nobody else is talking to them.

29:10
And so I don’t know if that answers the question of how narrow, if that could be very narrow, but it could also, it could also be something like very, very like very tool oriented. Because another one of our students still builds eBay pages for people who are selling like used electronics and auto parts on eBay.

And that’s her niche that she’s like, I built eBay storefronts for reselling like companies that resell stuff and that’s like a specific tool. And she had, she kind of like made a name for herself doing that.

29:46
So I don’t know if that answers your question, but I think that it’s, I think what I’m getting at is that if you just like pull something out of the sky that you don’t have a unique positioning on, it might take you a lot longer to build up authority and expertise in that. Then if you already can, like, think of something that you can that you can speak to from experience.

Yeah, definitely. And I feel like a lot of designers are afraid of how they would say. And that’s honestly like what I thought as well is like I’m gonna put myself in a box by specializing or choosing this one topic, one niche cuz you know, as creatives we want to have that freedom and we want to be creative.

30:38
But then, and I still remember when I hired this one marketing agency to help me because I was, I was constantly at $3,000 a month, like every single month making $3,000. And then I hired that marketing agency. I think we already talked about it, but basically they came in and they told me, I think we need to help you figure out how you’re going to specialize so that we can know who your ideal client is.

30:59
At that time, I was, as many of our listeners can probably relate to, I was just like, no, no, no, I want to serve everyone and anyone because I’m passionate about all these industries. And now when you mention that one of your students does websites for doulas, I’m like, Oh my God, that’s so narrow.

31:16
But then, you know, thinking further, that’s not that narrow. There is still, you know, like every state, every country, every city, like there’s so many doulas and they have different approaches. And that doesn’t mean that every single logo or a website or visuals are going to be completely the same. Everything is still different and every client is different. So I think that, you know, designers just need to remember that even if they choose one industry or one tool or whatever it is, it’s never, you will never go too narrow.

I don’t think you can go too narrow. And I think and I also think like you know we also have students that just specialize in just really complex projects that the industry is different for these complex projects.

32:06
But what But how they’re able to niche while they’re not working with a specific demographic or industry is the way that they talk about the problems that these clients are experiencing and how they lead them to a solution.

32:23
And so while it’s not necessarily a niche of an industry or a certain type of person or certain type of business, it’s a niche of solving this very specific type of problem. And so there’s so many different ways to do that. But I do think if you’re like I am a Squarespace designer like and I specialize in Squarespace, I think that that’s not necessarily going to catch the attention of the people that you really wanna work with.

Yes, and there are many now designers talking about. I’m a web designer. I used to show it and I’m like, what does that do and mean? I mean, I get it as a web designer myself, right? But, you know, clients don’t really know what that means.

33:15
And then you’re going to just put them in that rabbit hole where they’re going to Google what’s show it, what’s Webflow, what’s Squarespace, what’s WordPress. And they will feel so overwhelmed. So I think that while it’s important to mention what platform you’re going to use, I don’t think you can just like specialize in this, you know, one platform, because platform is just a tool. It’s almost like, oh, I specialize in Photoshop. What is that going to mean?

Right, exactly. Yeah.

33:31
Yeah. So when it comes to marketing, everything we talked about is more like connecting with people and positioning. But do you have any tips for design business owners to effectively maybe leverage platforms like Instagram or Pinterest or LinkedIn like to showcase their work and maybe attract potential clients Like it’s all about like content marketing. So do you think that that can be successful these days? I know the market is kind of saturated, like there are so many designers, but what? What do you think?

So my strategy I’m I’m not a social media person. It’s not like a place where I’m necessarily creating content except for in terms of how I share. Like I have my own podcast coming on this podcast. I will share like collaboration content on those platforms.

And so one of my favorite ways, and this is how I accidentally started marketing my business back in the day when I’m like I just need to get in front of people who serve the same audience is I would interview.

34:42
And this was all like in a blog format. But I’m sure there are way creative ways to do this now with like Instagram and LinkedIn and whatever. I would interview someone who had the audience that I wanted to serve. And then I would create an awesome piece of content that I was going to promote on my platform that had like zero followers. Like my blog that had zero readers send out to my ten person e-mail list. But also create something really beautiful that share showed them in a really great light and really highlighted them and showcased them and featured them and invited them to send it up to their list as well.

35:01
And or their audience and their audience is the people that I want to serve. And I’d ask like related questions and share you know more about who I am. And then invite them to promote it and share it on their platforms where they already have an audience.

35:18
And so it’s kind of like a 2 for one where you’re building your network, you’ve got something to give, you’re inviting them to share. People like to share what makes them look good, like that’s how why social media works. People love to share what makes them look good. And you are creating content, relevant content for your own platform, creating content for that person’s platform. You can do the same thing with their clients. You can do in depth case studies and share them and you know going like creating some people love to share things that look good. Like if you don’t have clients that you’re creating for, you know, creating something beautiful for that like collaboration.

35:58
I think that that’s one of the best ways to build relationships, create content for social media. And if you do that, then ask that person, who else should I connect with? Who else should I talk to? Give me a few names of people who you’re following and that’s how you can really start to follow the thread of like, what are The Who are the people in my space that are thought leaders that I can connect with and talk to? And oh, by the way, I’m a designer and I work with people just like you. And if you know anyone, send them my way. And here’s some beautiful content for your social media that you didn’t have to create.

36:42
Yeah, I love that because it just feels everything we talked about now is people do business with people. They want to be connected to other people and they want to work with people who they’re going to trust.

36:56
I mean, you were able to build a business without putting efforts on social media or putting a lot of effort because I’ve seen many designers struggle with, oh, I don’t know what to post and then they’re stuck in, I don’t know how to post. I don’t know how often to post. At what time do I need to post? Do I need to post reels or single images or carousels? And that’s just Instagram. And then I need to repost some TikTok and Pinterest and YouTube shorts and they just get stuck and sucked into that and then they don’t do anything. Or they would then go to ChatGPT and post something that’s generic and even worse.

37:37
Yes, totally. And could I have more reach if I had a social media strategy that I loved and that worked for me and that didn’t feel like a drag? Absolutely. I’m sure there are plenty of people that make that work. It’s just not for me. And so I think for everybody out there who it is for them, they’re probably already doing it and having success with it and don’t need my advice with it. But it’s like the people that are struggling that are like, oh, this is a drag. I hate this. Do I have to be here? I don’t know what to do. You can get creative with it and build your network because, listen, the algorithm’s going to change. The new hot thing’s going to come out. Like if that’s your thing and you want to follow and be on the cutting edge, amazing. More power to you. Like, that’s just not how I roll.

38:23
I like to talk to people and have longer conversations and connect in a deeper way. And you know, that’s that’s just my thing.

38:35
Yeah, and how about e-mail marketing and blogging? Is that something that designers can also focus on? Because I know that blogging was popular in the past, but I think, and I feel like it’s either coming back or. I mean honestly, blogging is something that we leverage to this day and we post our blogs all the time because of SEO and other things. But I mean, you probably know more than I do on that topic when it comes to website design and SEO. And so is blogging even still, you know, I think. And is that something that the designers should do for themselves?

39:08
I feel like back to our conversation about niche earlier, like when you were like, OK, I know who I serve. I know how I serve them. I know I can strategically talk about problems that that, like they may be searching for that will lead them to me. I think blogging would be a fantastic like way to just build a foundation for traffic to come to you later. I think it’s a great place to feature people that you’re meeting online if you do decide to do some type of like interview series. We both do podcast show notes that are basically blog posts. So in terms of that, yeah, I think it’s definitely worth doing.

39:39
I don’t think it’s worth doing like something like should I choose the WordPress or Squarespace. I don’t think that that’s going to bring you like we said like the right clients. So when you’re talking about those like basic level. Things I don’t know that that’s going. I don’t know that I would spend my time there. I don’t think I would recommend that. And if you’ve done that don’t feel bad like we’ve all done it. I did it like you know, it’s just I’m going to just share with you based on data that did not bring me the right people.

40:07
Yeah, yeah. And I and now that you mentioned, I’m just remembering my first few blog posts. What is the brand type of logo designs? And I’m like.

40:18
I. Don’t know exactly. Do this with gravity like I don’t like we all have to start somewhere. So like don’t, like, do not judge yourself. Like way to take action and create something that’s awesome and you know, so like, please don’t take that as like any kind of judgement from me whatsoever.

40:35
Exactly. All of.

40:39
It exactly I’ve done it too and I think that it’s it’s kind of was helpful so that I was able to learn what to do and what not to do in the future. Because when you look into Google Analytics and then you figure out what’s working, what’s not working, I mean, you can’t know what’s working and how to build your business until like, unless you try it.

41:08
Yeah, absolutely. And and as far as like e-mail marketing, I do think that if you are going to like build a network of people and connect with people, it is fantastic to give people away so that you can proactively communicate with them. So if you can create some sort of, you know, opt in or lead magnet, I call it a share worthy freebie. Something that’s going to be like memorable and juicy and like really just giving them value to help them to maybe solve a small problem for them so that you can take advantage of like oh, I’m meeting people, people are interested.

41:39
They want they want this thing that’s going to lead them to potentially working with me. I think that there is absolutely no reason to not do that. You never know what you might want to do with it in the future and let people know that you’ve got open spots. I definitely think that it’s something to do. I don’t think it’s the only thing to do or to focus on.

42:07
Yeah, definitely. And are there any, like common marketing mistakes or misconceptions that you would maybe see either from your past experience or from your students? The designers would do and constantly, you know, work on something, but then maybe it’s not working or like what would you say? That’s kind of like marketing mistakes are when it comes to, you know, doing marketing and promoting your web design business.

43:04
Yeah, that’s there are, there are a couple that come to mind and the first one is like just in how you talk about your services, if you’re like I’m the most affordable, I’m the budget friendly, I’m the most cost effective, I can save you money. And on the flip side you’re like nobody wants to pay my rates. I’m not getting clients. I think that that is that like auditing your copy for every time you’re telling people that they shouldn’t pay you that much for your services. Is is one is a huge opportunity I see for a lot of a lot of web designers specifically. I don’t necessarily know if that’s the case for for graphic designers, but thinking that if you position yourself as the cheapest option, you’ll get more clients, it’s a myth. It’s not. It’s not. It’s not necessarily true unless you you have like the economy of scale where you’ve just got the a huge agency and that’s just your thing. But if you’re if that’s not you, I would shy away from that.

43:25
I also think thinking that you have to have like an elevator pitch before you can talk to anybody about what you do that you have to just be like in 30 seconds I have to tell somebody what I do and you put all like and it’s not feeling natural to you and you just put a ton of pressure on yourself. I think that that is. And then you avoid meeting people or going to networking events, being prepared to ask other people questions and then just letting the conversation flow naturally to where it’s going to go instead of feeling like I have to already know how I’m going to sell this person on me the moment I meet them. It’s like, that’s a lot of pressure to put on yourself and it takes time to get to the point where I can be like I’m a business coach for web designers. Like I don’t know how many years it’s taken me to get to the point where it rolls off my tongue that easily. But I would say like, you don’t have to put that kind of pressure on yourself to have the elevator pitch.

44:07
And then just the other mistake is like doing something, not getting instant results of a new client tomorrow and then saying that thing doesn’t work, I’m going to stop, this doesn’t work. Shiny object, Shiny object. Jump from strategy to strategy. You have got to give things time to grow, have to nurture them. You plant a lot, plant a lot of seeds with no expectation of how it’s going to, how it’s going to grow.

45:07
The way our students describe this is like, I feel like I’m just throwing so many things against the wall and I don’t know what’s working. And then three months later, they’re like I’m getting so many clients and I don’t know where they’re coming from. It’s like, yeah, because you did all the things before that felt like they weren’t working and now they’re working. So instant gratification and impatience. I think that’s one of the biggest mistakes. And I’m so guilty of that too. By the way, all of these, I’m like, I’ve done them all too, so.

45:46
Yeah. And I want to add, so for example, blogging is one of our now. I mean, SCO is how our clients mostly now find us, but it took about two years of writing content and hiring different ghost writers and bloggers to help me with it, to actually see some traction on my website and four years until I started getting my ideal clients. So I know that if someone is now listening to this and they’re like 4 years, like I don’t have time for that. Well you know, it’s just what it is. And maybe if I was to do like social media or something else, maybe that would work better. But now with blogging I have, I have a Blogger who works for my agency and he posts 2 blog posts a month and that’s it. And that’s how we’re getting clients. I don’t have to chase the algorithm and all the things you mentioned. I don’t have to do the dance reels and tik toks and pointing things and and I think against people who do it. I just don’t feel like I want to do that and that’s and I don’t have to do it because I was working on something else and yes, it took time. You know, you can’t really expect to do something today and get a client tomorrow.

46:32
The same is like what you mentioned about website copy. And the other thing that I heard you talking about without saying it directly is that a lot of designers focus on themselves and maybe talk a lot about what is that that they offer versus talking about the client. Because clients are not hiring us to get that logo or that business card or a website. They’re hiring us so that they can grow their business. And I think that that’s, you know, you you mentioned it in different words that you know, designers make that mistake by not talking more about their clients, but talking about themselves.

47:13
Yeah. And I mean I think it just it’s it’s the it’s a journey we go on as business owners where you know we step out on their own or we’re like how do I stand out, how do I prove myself that it’s the same thing as like you know when you’re getting your first job where you’re like oh how do I show that I’m the best candidate for this. Like we take a lot of things that we do in in corporate, like on our resume, we have to like have all these qualifications and show all this stuff to get the job and we just translate that right over to trying to get quote UN quote jobs in our business.

48:15
And it’s just a completely different dynamic, a completely different world. So many of the things that work the way that world works is not the way that this world works all the all the time. And so it’s like of course we would start there. We’ve been conditioned to start there all our lives that we have to prove ourselves, that we have to stand out, that we have to have all of these accolades and skills and this and this and this to succeed. But truly like it’s it’s just not about us. It’s about how we help our clients and if we can speak to that more like that’s so much more more valuable. So it’s it just makes sense to me why we do that. It’s, it’s and it doesn’t feel natural necessarily to to talk about the clients and what’s possible for them. And there’s a whole learning curve there of like, well, how do I know if they can really accomplish this with with the logo that I designed for them? And you have to get over all that stuff too. But that’s it’s definitely a learning curve for sure to not make it all about you.

49:13
Definitely. And I mean it’s a journey. I started having a cat on my homepage because I like cats, which you know, it’s not. It’s not related to and nothing against people who who really show that personality. And I think that having your personal brand is amazing and if you love cats, go for it. Make it all about cats and focus on, you know, getting clients who are cat owners and all of that. And it’s, it’s really good if you can do that. But it also has to be like, very strategic. You can’t just, like, have a cat and be like, oh, I’m about designer, hire me.

50:18
Right. Yeah. We go on a journey and you know, that’s just where, like, I think people like you help help people shortcut that journey because you’re you’re like, oh hey, I’ve done all of these things, I can help you just skip over that part.

50:33
Yeah, definitely. OK, Well, we covered a lot in this podcast episode. We talked about I think every possible marketing strategy and we mentioned what is that that’s working, What’s not working? What marketing mistakes designers are making? Is there anything else that you would like to share? And if not, could you please share? How can people connect with you? Your website? Social media?

50:55
Oh my gosh, this has been just such a fun conversation. And I think that the last thing that I would share is just like just try stuff, even if it is not the right thing, even if it doesn’t result in an instant client. Like like Katie said, you know, you don’t know what works and what doesn’t work until you try it. Don’t be afraid to make mistakes like they’re not. It’s, you know, you’re going to find what works faster by finding what doesn’t work. So we’re, you know, we shared a lot of stuff with you on on this podcast, but like, just go try some stuff, see what happens. Like see if you like it, maybe maybe you love it, maybe you hate it, like just try some things and you know, just see what happens. So yeah, that’s the last thing I would share.

51:34
And yeah, if you guys want to learn more about me, you can go to webdesigneracademy.com. You can find me on Instagram at Profitable Web Designer, and our Profitable Web Designer podcast is at profitablewebdesigner.com. And Katie has been interviewed on that show, so you can check out our conversation there too. So yeah, that’s where to find me.

51:50
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was my pleasure.

Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Graphic Designer Podcast, but wait. Before you go, if you enjoyed this podcast episode and want a chance to access one of our online courses for free, simply leave us a review on Apple Podcast. Each month, one lucky reviewer gets to pick a course as a token of our appreciation.

52:21
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52:40
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53:00
Until next time, be sure to connect with us on Instagram at @aventiveacademy, where we share valuable business tips, stories and resources for brand, graphic and web design business owners. Bye for now, your host, Kady Sandel.